What did this ordinary looking 1d 1912 Vic letter sell for?

Post by **admin** » 28 Jul 2009 23:30

Noticed this recently and thought I'd share it with others.

There is nothing unusual about the stamp, and the date of the cancel - Xmas Eve 1912 ... is not relevant to the price it got ..... any other date would have achieved about the same result. i.e. it is not First Day of Issue etc.

I'd have left it in the 10c junk box if it were in my stock.

USUAL RULES ... make your vote and post here if you wish BUT anyone posting anything that points to where sold, price obtained, or reason for what it sold for will be shot at dawn with a rusty bullet. And their post will be edited before the firing squad is formed.

Guess away! You are guessing the auction invoice price.

Lakatoi 4 · Post by **Lakatoi 4** » 28 Jul 2009 23:48

Now that's a difficult one

jugoslavija_post · Post by **jugoslavija_post** » 29 Jul 2009 00:09

Doesn't rust in your blood give you typhoid or something?

Post by **admin** » 29 Jul 2009 00:13

jugoslavija_post wrote:Doesn't rust in your blood give you typhoid or something?

Very possibly.

After one of these suckers gets ya, there will not be much blood left to catch anything.

Image link inactive. Removed

eqnox · Post by **eqnox** » 29 Jul 2009 00:28

I might be screwing up my Australian history but could it have something to do with who it is addressed to? Part of the "Aussie gowers"

http://www.oswild.org/hobnob/family/john/aussie-gowers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

---
posted from mobile

Post by **admin** » 29 Jul 2009 00:31

By no means regard this as a clue -- but John Gower is pretty famous in Australia philatelic history.

------------------

From one of my columns -

The founder of the famous Wesley cover Service was John Gower, who had an interesting history.

Gower contracted polio in 1930 and was crippled from the waist down. This led him into a very active philatelic life. He began the "Kangaroo Correspondence and Exchange Club" in Adelaide in 1931.

Only a few weeks ago, Australia's leading FDC collector Frank Pauer from Melbourne obtained from eBay a hitherto unrecorded Gower design cover from this era, dated December 1931 - shown below

Frank told me today he would have paid "whatever it took" to secure this cover. It certainly "took" him MANY $100s in the end. Most dealers - or collectors would not have recognised its significance. I certainly would not have. It is the second earliest known Gower USEAGE of any cover. (Frank owns the other!)

John Gower opened the Post Office at Largs North, another Adelaide beach suburb on June 17, 1947. Therefore a vast number of earlier WCS FDC are cancelled at Largs North, starting with the September 1947 "Newcastle" trio.

cyber · Post by **cyber** » 29 Jul 2009 01:47

The cancel sure looks interesting

. Voted A$400 but wouldn't be surprised if it went higher.

jugoslavija_post · Post by **jugoslavija_post** » 29 Jul 2009 06:11

admin wrote:Very possibly.

After one of these suckers gets ya, there will not be much blood left to catch anything.

Image link inactive. Removed

I'll have the silver one, please! 8)

mrboggler · Post by **mrboggler** » 29 Jul 2009 08:18

Glen,, if you have any more covers in your 10 cent box like these Please mail to me at the shop ASAP, I will take all that you have.

Thanks Ron.

Lakatoi 4 · Post by **Lakatoi 4** » 29 Jul 2009 09:16

jugoslavija_post wrote:
admin wrote:Very possibly.

After one of these suckers gets ya, there will not be much blood left to catch anything.

Image link inactive. Removed
I'll have the silver one, please! 8)

Make mine the one on the far left hand side - it's a blank dummy round 8)

howwible · Post by **howwible** » 29 Jul 2009 10:34

I went for $4000.00,just a guess..

And I just love (comment deleted by Admin, now where are those BULLETS?!)

Bruce in Widgiemooltha

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 29 Jul 2009 12:43

It is a nice (comment deleted by Admin, now where are those BULLETS?!)

jugoslavija_post · Post by **jugoslavija_post** » 29 Jul 2009 13:15

Bruce, you may have given away the answer.

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 29 Jul 2009 13:33

If he did, it will be quickly edited out.

pandadog28 · Post by **pandadog28** » 29 Jul 2009 14:32

I went for 40 gorillas, it is certainly in nice nick.

quicksingle · Post by **quicksingle** » 29 Jul 2009 22:12

Hi,

Is it something to do with (comment deleted by Admin, now where are those BULLETS?!) ?

Post by **gavin-h** » 29 Jul 2009 22:20

I think Bruce might be on to something here - and I like his reasoning so I've followed suit.

Clive · Post by **Clive** » 30 Jul 2009 04:04

Glen,

Shame your editorial blue pencil is so hard at work, as the interest in the cover is a much better topic than the price it realised.

This is the first example of the Australian flag appearing on a postmark on cover??

I know you said the date of the postmark isn't significant, but it's just a week away from the release of the Roo and Map series. Yet here we are with a stamp showing Queen Victoria, who had been dead since 1901, and a flag that we didn't officially call our own until Bob Menzies' Government passed the Flag Act in 1953.

Funny thing about the new nation of Australia when it came into being on 1 January 1901 - it had virtually none of the usual symbols of nationhood. For example it didn't have its 'own' flag, it didn't have its 'own' coins, and it didn't have its 'own' stamps.

Clive

howwible · Post by **howwible** » 30 Jul 2009 11:56

Oh dear,
Ive been shot at dawn with some rusty bullets

I did not really think I was giving anything away..Mainly because I still dont know what it sold for..

And I would still really really like one

I am sorry if I have upset anyone who read my previous post before it was edited..That was not my intention I was only remarking on what I liked about it

Oh that will probably go as well

I will now go hide in the corner,till advised that I can come out to play again

Bruce in Widgiemooltha

Post by **GlenStephens** » 30 Jul 2009 12:10

Clive I know for sure that flag cancel had been used at least 6 months before this one is dated, so no, first use of it is not the reason for the price obtained.

"

As I have typed before in 'Stamp News' - the following explains WHY QV stamps were used in 1912 despite her being DEAD for 11 years.

In fact all states used QV and not KEVII in the same period, where a monarch was depicted.

This absolutely superb looking item I just bought, shows QV heads from 4 states used in 1914 along with a 4d Roo! All quite legal.

As is generally known, Australia became a 'Commonwealth' on January 1, 1901 - the month Queen Victoria died. For postal arrangements, the amalgamation of the six different state Post and Telegraph services was required. This occurred on March 1, 1901.

That date can be regarded as the date after which any stamps issued, were done so by the Australian Commonwealth Postmaster-General's Department.

However, the Post and Telegraph Act 1901 was not enacted into law until November 1, 1901. Interestingly enough Colonial stamps were never demonetised, and most continued to be valid for use (in any State) after 1901 - indeed were fully legal on any mail until 1968. Many collectors and dealers used them for normal mail to other collectors as low values were very inexpensive.

For near a century 'Australian' stamp issues have been regarded as those commencing with the Kangaroo and Map series in 1913. The ACSC catalogue now (correctly) broadly defines them as any stamps issued since 1901.

Curiously, despite Queen Victoria dying in January 1901, nearly all stamps on sale across Australia until the Kangaroo series was issued in 1913 featured her image - which itself was over 70 years old. I have NEVER understood why the next 2 monarchs were not depicted on the letter-rate stamps.

A person licking a 1d or 2d Queen Victoria stamp onto every letter they mailed for 12 years after she had died, as there was no other design choice, seems incredibly bizarre. If you lived in Victoria or Queensland or South Australia, that was your only option.

King Edward VII's Coronation was 9th August 1902. Other than the Victoria £1 and £2 high values, he was not depicted on any other State's postage stamps at any time.

Lakatoi 4 · Post by **Lakatoi 4** » 30 Jul 2009 12:54

GlenStephens wrote:Interestingly enough Colonial stamps were never demonetised, and most continued to be valid for use (in any State) after 1901 - indeed were fully legal on any mail until 1968. Many collectors and dealers used them for normal mail to other collectors as low values were very inexpensive.

Here's a FFC from 1934 with Tasmanian state stamps and still postally valid (note the o/print grossly offset vertically on the 5d.

):

Clive · Post by **Clive** » 30 Jul 2009 15:48

Glen,

As is generally known, Australia became a 'Commonwealth' on January 1, 1901 - the month Queen Victoria died. For postal arrangements, the amalgamation of the six different state Post and Telegraph services was required. This occurred on March 1, 1901.

That date can be regarded as the date after which any stamps issued, were done so by the Australian Commonwealth Postmaster-General's Department.

However, the Post and Telegraph Act 1901 was not enacted into law until November 1, 1901. Interestingly enough Colonial stamps were never demonetised, and most continued to be valid for use (in any State) after 1901 - indeed were fully legal on any mail until 1968. Many collectors and dealers used them for normal mail to other collectors as low values were very inexpensive.

The Colonial/States stamps post Federation were not valid for use in any State until 1910. Neither was there any uniformity of postal rates from State to State, except for the newspaper rate. Indeed, each State's stamps could only be postally used in the 'home' State. Many States' post offices carried stocks of other States' stamps (and other countries, too) so that if you were corresponding with someone in another State or country you could enclose appropriate postage for the reply, or make up an SAE (also used as currency for paying small amounts). So, despite our new nationhood and federalism, there was for all intents and purposes no interchangeability of stamps or uniformity of postal rates. This was the case until 1910, when the temporary financial provisions of the Constitution ended and the Government was free to enact its reforms.

Those temporary financial provisions were the sole cause of us not having a uniform postage stamp series until 1913. Tasmania played a heroic role in all of this, with special mention to Premier Braddon and his 'blot', and of course to the Tattersall's lottery.

The ACSC catalogue now (correctly) broadly defines [Australian Commonwealth] as any stamps issued since 1901.

Yes, but given the only 'national' characteristic was that the postal service was under the Commonwealth Postmaster-General, I don't buy the 'broad' definition, although I'm sure many do.

Clive

reddog · Post by **reddog** » 31 Jul 2009 10:46

Hi Clive, Reddog here.

Given that the old British colonies ceased to exist on 1 Jan 1901 and the newly constituted states had no jurisdiction over postal services what other status could there be for stamp issues post-Federation, broad or otherwise? There may be a qualifying adjective but at the end of the day they must be Commonwealth issues.

The 1901-1912 period is a fascinating area of Australian philately which is largely ignored. On the one hand it's a shame but by the same token it means that quite rare material can be acquired for a fraction of the price of its post-1913 equivalent.

Cheers,
Mark.

P.S. I voted $400 for the above.

Nguyen · Post by **Nguyen** » 31 Jul 2009 12:25

Flags are a topical. Glen was about to throw it to the 10c box, but I voted for 4.

Post by **admin** » 01 Aug 2009 14:14

What did this ordinary looking 1d 1912 Vic letter sell for?

1. Around $A4 7% [ 3 ]
2. Around $A40 7% [ 3 ]
3. Around $A400 25% [ 11 ]
4. Around $A4,000 43% [ 19 ]
5. Around $A40,000 9% [ 4 ]
6. Nowhere even close to any of the above. 9% [ 4 ]

Total votes : 44

44 votes so far. Let's get to around 50 and then I can annunce the result.

Glen

Didge · Post by **Didge** » 01 Aug 2009 17:07

Folks,

I dont have any idea but will guess $400

Tim

borneo · Post by **borneo** » 01 Aug 2009 23:48

$4000

Greg Ioannou · Post by **Greg Ioannou** » 02 Aug 2009 06:30

Hmmm. The big star in the Aussie flag cancel is upside down. Is it a postmark error?

Greg

Nangkita · Post by **Nangkita** » 02 Aug 2009 10:04

I have no idea but I am dying for the answer so I'll say $400

Post by **admin** » 02 Aug 2009 17:20

Nangkita wrote:
I have no idea but I am dying for the answer so I'll say $400

Four more members to vote, taking us to 50, and the answer you shall have!

Didge · Post by **Didge** » 02 Aug 2009 17:43

Glen,

Can you vote more than once?

Tim

Post by **admin** » 02 Aug 2009 17:45

Didge wrote:Glen,

Can you vote more than once?

Tim

Only in Zimbabwe it seems.

Post by **admin** » 02 Aug 2009 22:18

What did this ordinary looking 1d 1912 Vic letter sell for?

1. Around $A4 10% [ 5 ]
2. Around $A40 6% [ 3 ]
3. Around $A400 25% [ 13 ]
4. Around $A4,000 41% [ 21 ]
5. Around $A40,000 10% [ 5 ]
6. Nowhere even close to any of the above. 8% [ 4 ]

Total votes : 51

OK we are over 50 votes and the answer is this was invoiced last week by Prestige for around $A4,000 when the commissions and extras were tacked on.

So only 21 of 51 votes were right.

They described it as -

1912 cover to Hawthorn with 1d pink tied by a superb strike of the rare Melbourne "boxed flag" Krag continuous-machine cancellation, the flap removed otherwise superb.

Ex Purves & Hugh Freeman, who advises that only a couple of other covers are recorded and they are defective. [One of the great rarities of Melbourne postmarks and of world machine cancels. It was in use on a trial basis for at most three days in June and December 1912

As I always have said "Knowledge Is Power" in stamps. A week back I'd have left this in a junk box, so we all learn something new each day.

Greg Ioannou · Post by **Greg Ioannou** » 03 Aug 2009 00:55

Yeah, I knew I'd never seen a Victorian flag cancel. Odd that they drew it with the star upside down.

Greg

Post by **GlenStephens** » 03 Aug 2009 00:57

Be honest Greg .. if you saw this in a John Talman $10 box would you have even glanced twice?

Greg Ioannou · Post by **Greg Ioannou** » 03 Aug 2009 01:15

Probably not. Especially since I don't collect Victoria -- I would have skipped right by it.

Greg

quicksingle · Post by **quicksingle** » 03 Aug 2009 19:03

Beautiful cover thought it was the slogan but got price wrong

erich · Post by **erich** » 04 Aug 2009 15:07

I confess I would not have caught this as being anything special.

Frank E Ring · Post by **Frank E Ring** » 05 Aug 2009 23:18

Greg Ioannou wrote:Odd that they drew it with the star upside down.

It may not be so odd if the cylinder was engraved at Krag's workshop in Kristiania, Norway, on the opposite side of the globe.

I have a strong feeling that every country with Krag-Hansen mail marking machines has machine postmark gems that may stretch to similar levels when offered on public auction in the home country.

For instance there was a square date insert used in South-Africa for a brief time (~1913? Johannseburg?), and the same type in Kristiania (Easter 1907); these are very sought after (and look just like those that were in regular use all over Britain).

Among collectors, however, slogans and pictorials are the most wanted if we put hammer price as the reference. This perhaps because of peer pressure from thematic collectors as well

Craig · Post by **Craig** » 06 Aug 2009 10:09

Very interesting. Good to know there are postmark collectors out there with big budgets

Raz · Post by **Raz** » 07 Aug 2009 02:18

Can anyone explain why the very interesting cover posted by Lakatoi4 on this thread has the spelling of Yanco, which is how I've seen it for 40 years or so, and is how it is spelt on the address, is officially CDS'd as Yanko. I have never come across Yanko before.

Can anyone with historical Riverina knowledge please explain this curio?

Post by **admin** » 09 Aug 2009 19:07

quicksingle wrote:Beautiful cover

Actually the back flap is missing, so is in less than perfect condition!

traralgon3844 · Post by **traralgon3844** » 09 Aug 2009 19:15

Raz wrote:Can anyone explain why the very interesting cover posted by Lakatoi4 on this thread has the spelling of Yanco, which is how I've seen it for 40 years or so, and is how it is spelt on the address, is officially CDS'd as Yanko. I have never come across Yanko before.

Can anyone with historical Riverina knowledge please explain this curio?

Simple: Yanko Renamed from North Yanco PO 1/4/1892; renamed Yanco PO c.1928. Just kept the old postmarker.

traralgon3844 · Post by **traralgon3844** » 23 Aug 2009 10:45

Not worth starting a new thread over this little item.

But there is money in Victorian Post Marks. This little iten has an opening bid of over $1,000 AU.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/VICTORIA-BUTTERFLY-43-OF-KINLOCHEWE-O ... tsupported" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **GlenStephens** » 23 Aug 2009 12:31

This listing () has been removed or is no longer available. Please make sure you entered the right item number.

If the listing was removed by eBay, consider it cancelled. Note: Listings that have ended more than 90 days ago will no longer appear on eBay.

traralgon3844 · Post by **traralgon3844** » 23 Aug 2009 12:48

The link to the Post Mark item is now fixed.

Post by **GlenStephens** » 23 Aug 2009 13:25

Paul .. yes it is $1000 start price but the stamp it is on, is a very fine copy of SG 2 .. a SG £800 stamp with ANY postmark!

a zedane · Post by **a zedane** » 31 Aug 2009 22:47

That is the point...knowldge is power
thnx for EVERY one here..admistrators....members...GLEN